Psychology of Investing

Transcript performed by A.I. Please excuse the typos.
00:00
There are these traps and traps that especially smart people tend to fall into around investing that cause them to be bad investors. So these are traps like getting too caught up in financial news or financial media and panicking. You’re smart. You understood what they said. You understood why the recent jobs number or inflation was a problem. But if that causes you to deviate from your investment plan and let’s say the market then goes up or whatever happens, you never know. Right.

00:29
the market’s unpredictable most of the time. What could you do? What could you take away from this tomorrow? And I think it’s that there is a lot of noise in financial media and being able to tune out much of the noise is an important skill and all it takes is reminding yourself.

00:52
This is Dental All-Stars, where we bring you the best in dentistry on marketing, management and training.

01:01
Welcome to Dental All-Stars. I’m Alex Nottingham, founder and CEO of All-Star Dental Academy. And with me is Jack Bowman. And he’s a writer, educator, and investment advisor from Southern California. He writes on investment news and ETFs and products. And he’s been featured on Seeking Alpha, CNBC, and MSN. And we’re talking about the psychology of investing. Please welcome Jack. Awesome. Thanks for having me on, Alex. You’re welcome. Well, you are my favorite author.

01:31
I’m seeking alpha. It’s a long story how I got on there and I pay for it. But there’s a lot of writing, a lot of information, a lot of clutter. But you, your writing is so clear and educational. It’s besides just what to buy, like understanding you’re also, mean, your background, were an educator and you’re an economist. mean, that’s,

01:56
I don’t see that on your bio, but I mean, you’re an economist. mean, you know all these things about how interest rates work. I feel like I was telling you the other day, I’m like, my brain just gets bigger and smarter talking to you. So for those that are listening, I know my dentist, they’re big nerds like me and they love to learn. they’re, paying attention about this stuff. So, uh, yes, it’s, it’s an honor to have you. Well, yeah, thank you. No, I have a great time.

02:22
engaging in discourse, especially about investments, markets, economics. And I find that a lot of investors really want that education piece because they don’t just want to be told or fed, you know, you can go anywhere and find someone who will give you investment advice on what you should buy or not buy. Right. But someone who teaches you why you do certain things during investing or the nitty gritty that of tax codes and things you need to be aware of that actually are

02:52
meaningful to your portfolio that aren’t just buying and selling stocks. And I’m happy to be able to work in that field. we were saying that for those that are listening, that many may have a financial advisor or some may not. What I find is a good chunk of them have, but they also have an account that they manage. And I think it’s nice to be informed if you’re doing your own investing or even if you’re working with an advisor, which we’re all for, is

03:22
that you’re educated and part of the education provides conviction to stick with what you’re doing, to have perspective in what’s going on. Okay. And so I thought that the psychology of investing will be so important. And, um, I joke about, I’m not only the hair club president, I’m also a client for those I see, you don’t want to get hair advice from me, but the idea is I also could use these tips as well. So when it comes to investing, what can make

03:52
smart people, that’s me, okay, a bad investor. Yeah. I think that there’s a misconception that being smart, even being educated about markets makes you a good investor. But there are these traps and traps that especially smart people tend to fall into around investing that cause them to be bad investors. So these are traps like.

04:22
uh getting too caught up in financial news or financial media and panicking, making bad decisions because of speculation you heard on CNBC. You’re smart. You understood what they said. You understood why the recent jobs number or inflation was a problem. But if that causes you to deviate from your investment plan, and let’s say the market then goes up or whatever happens, you never know, right? The market’s unpredictable most of the time.

04:50
And when it is predictable, the trade is so crowded that you can’t make any money off of it. So you make these poor decisions because you’re informed. You feel like you’re preparing yourself. And there’s some benefit to managing your portfolio intelligently and managing your risk and all this. But people tend to do it overboard. And the more you learn about finance, the more you hear these kind of doomsayers, the more you begin to believe them and make poor decisions.

05:20
There’s also an idea that like there’s people who know a certain field or they know a certain trade. And so they make investments in tiny little companies in that niche because they know them. It’s familiar. But that doesn’t always make them really good investors. They can be really, really solid understanding how aggregate mining works and the intricacies of gravel companies. But that may not make you good at picking out which gravel companies are going to succeed.

05:49
Cause some of that’s up to chance. Makes sense. So, all right. So you can sometimes I, I, I’m thinking like outsmart yourself a bit and having too much information and not like sticking with the program. And I guess that kind of goes to conviction. So why would, when you hear news, you want to, and not even that the other

06:18
Conviction is one of them, but also timing, that we can time it, that something’s wrong, I can get out. So tell me about timing and well, can, and that’s also no problem being smart, I can outsmart the market and I can know when to get in, when to get out. So any words of wisdom on that? Yeah, on the level of timing, I think there’s a, and this is where advisors tend to come into play, is most DIY investors should probably stay away from timing because

06:47
They’re under-informed uh compared to all the professionals who are also trying to time along with you. Every time you’re trying to time the stock market, so too are hedge fund managers and pension funds and institutions and trillions and trillions of dollars are fighting with you or against you at any given time. And it’s very hard to beat them on a consistent basis over the long run.

07:15
So most investors, when they feel like they should panic, really should probably just own a bit less stocks and a bit more bonds or cash or what have you, but otherwise should probably just turn off their portfolio and go watch something that’s not financial news for a bit. It really is that simple of advisors are most helpful because they temper your psychology. Most advisors invest the same or they invest through these automated platforms that give you models.

07:44
that are decided on by somebody else, but they’re really there to temper so that you can’t go and panic sell, right? True. When your stock portfolio bleeds and it’s down 20, 30%, our gut instinct, our lizard brain reaction is to cut off the bleeding, sell everything, and run away. But those are often the times where we should be investing more, taking more risk, weathering the storm, whatever that is.

08:11
And that’s point where having an advisor could help because they prevent you from having these kinds of timing mistakes. But even your own timing of just, if it feels right to have a bit more cash, that’s okay. But if it feels right to jump ship and run, it’s probably not the best idea and you should probably sit on it for a while. And it’s probably better to think it through, make a decision for a philosophy or reason versus a knee jerk.

08:38
That goes to checking. How often should you be checking your portfolios in reality? So I know people, and the answer to this will probably upset some people who are either daily checkers or hourly checkers. I know people who check all through the trading day. They’ll have Yahoo Finance on their phone or whatever, even if they’re not watching their portfolio, they’re watching the Dow or they’re watching the S &P. And that’s

09:03
keeps them engaged in what their portfolio is doing more or less. They can kind of guesstimate. I think it’s probably not a good thing that people do that. I think checking less is probably better, especially if you have a long-term plan in place. If you have timed investments like CDs or bonds that mature, you’re going to have to check more frequently when those maturities happen because you need to deal with them and manage them. But otherwise,

09:30
Most people should probably only be checking once a month or once a quarter. And I know some people are going to say like, that’s, that’s a ridiculous amount of time to not look at my money. But if you’re not planning on doing anything with it, then a lot of times it’s just stress that you don’t really need. Although some people could feel some stress from not checking it. I get that too. Those are my daily checkers who maybe should check once a week. see. So if you can go.

09:59
I’m hearing you like, oh no, but if you can go so ideally yes monthly or quarterly but if you can if you’re a daily checker, maybe you can go a few days without or once a week is to start to almost like social media is like I think you make a good point that it’s unnecessary stress or more stress and so on that can help part of the psychology of investing is avoiding making bad decisions essentially, right

10:29
So what would you say the toughest lesson is to learn in investing is? The toughest lesson that I think most people ever learn in investing is that they are prone to overfitting their investment strategy. So let me, let me explain this. Uh, in trading strategies, when you overfit, basically means you look at backwards data, things like past performance.

10:58
and you make most of your decisions based on that. Right, so of course there’s decisions based on asset class, you’re looking at stocks instead of bonds or whatever it is. But a lot of people just tend to look at what is the 10-year performance. This is especially guilty for people in 401ks where they have a very limited selection. So they don’t always know the tickers, a lot of them are mutual funds that they’re not familiar with, you have to go look them up.

11:25
And even then, some of their websites look like they’re from the 90s, and they are not very functional. So it’s even more difficult to figure out what these vehicles are.

11:35
But if you skip all of that and you just sort by performance, you may end up with a portfolio that’s really imbalanced and you end up making less over the next however long because you were performance chasing and sometimes that reverts and rotates and what have you. And then people only learn that lesson because it’s really hard to break that habit. You learn that lesson when you look back and realize that the

12:04
Broad Market Index did outperform your specialized fund or whatever it was. did really well, right? ARKK was a great example of this. Cathie Wood’s ARK Innovation ETF went up 200 % in 2020 or something ridiculous. And everyone who had bought in before that felt like a genius and billions and billions of dollars poured into this ETF. And then it dropped 60 % the next year. And suddenly these people were not genius investors anymore. And that

12:34
caused a lot of people to learn this tough lesson, right? Just because it went up doesn’t mean it will keep going up. And choosing your investments by their performance is a poor choice. But it’s a lot of people’s choice. Well, we hear this a lot, and you remind us that past performance does not predict your future performance. And when you unpack that, you have to understand what went into the investment.

13:02
What are the macroeconomic conditions? And that’s where I think it’s helpful to know about in terms of constructing. But I mean, yeah, as you’re speaking, I remember when I first started investing over 10 years ago, this was Vanguard, and I’d go look at funds, and I’m like, this provided 8 % and 12%, and this hit 5%. Why would I invest in the one that’s so low? You just think that doesn’t make any sense, but you have to think about it depends on the timing of when you bought it. And then try to understand how it works.

13:31
And I think the word of caution would be don’t invest or don’t invest a lot in something you don’t understand. So what the or speculative like Bitcoin, right? So depends on when you bought it. Do you understand it? Do have conviction in it? And what’s an appropriate sizing of your portfolio in there? You also often write and advise that, yeah, you can go nuts with a small allocation if you want to play around with it. But we’re not gambling here. That’s not the point of investing. So

13:59
What is a way we hear about diversity or diversifying and that’s like a golden rule, just like compound interest. So how do we diversify without overfitting or overthinking? Yeah, that’s a great question. I think this is a very advisor answer of me, which I don’t give a lot on my column at Seeking Alpha, but I do in my practice as an advisor. The easiest

14:28
cheapest way to get diversity is to own an index of global stocks. Vanguard, Fidelity, Schwab, all these big players, they all have their own mutual funds, their own ETFs that cover the global stock market. It requires no understanding of any sort of local foreign markets. You don’t need to know what companies are big in Germany or China. uh You just need to own the index.

14:54
It does all the selection for you and you’re not going to be sitting and playing around with weights. Well, how much do I allocate towards developed markets like the first world versus emerging markets like the third world? And if you are someone who doesn’t really follow third world economics, you may not have a great idea about whether how much you should allocate there. So let the market take care of it, right? Hold it at market weight. And those global stock funds are still 60 % plus U S stocks.

15:24
Right. So the vast majority of the global stock market’s market cap is held in the U.S. Even still. So even if you’re diversifying globally, you’re still a little concentrated right here. You can’t avoid it in investing. So basically buy the world market and have some I guess that’s your core of equities. And then you could always add some some cash or cash like like products or bonds to offset it. And that’s it.

15:54
and you determine like kinda, right? That’s like the, it isn’t rocket science, right? So you’re saying that, and in most cases when you work with an advisor, they’re gonna do something like that. So we would joke sometimes that if you work with an institution like Fidelity or Vanguard, they’re gonna put you in a hundred things that really are overfitting. It’s the same stuff, like mid cap, small cap, but you’re still getting, it just looks fancy. But at the end of the day, if you’re buying, let’s say VT, which is Vanguard’s, uh

16:22
There’s no thinking. You have everything all in one package or you buy the constituents and keep that at the proper weights. Just ignore it. There’s not much else to do. And it’s interesting as I do more more research. So I used to be, and I’ve done videos that I was an S &P 500 guy. And I would have been very happy and still very happy if that’s the only thing that I bought, right? Because it’s most of the world market. But there have been times where it’s good to have the diversity where basically

16:52
Cause cause this goes to the macro economics talk to that we will often talk about is like if you’re buying the world stock market, you have bigger problems in if, if this sustains poor results over time, it will eventually impact the economy and so on. So there is an impetus of the world to be productive and for the best to shine and money to be made. Right. So there is.

17:19
I would say that the world economy is too big to fail. You need, right? The US is too big to fail. And so the governments are gonna print money, do whatever they can to make it happen. uh I mean, in a short, right, Mr. Economist? In some way, that’s gonna happen. Yeah, there’s a… We have engaged in monetary stimulus in a lot of different forms in the US and around the world and particularly in Western economies in such a way that basically has…

17:48
kept our asset markets, housing and stocks and bonds inflated. I would hesitate to use the word bubble, of course, but there is a level of like the government prints money at will. They can borrow effectively as much as they want. They do borrow effectively as much they want, right? They’re going to add $1.6 trillion to the federal debt this year. Whether you think that’s a good thing or a bad thing, they depend on

18:17
your views on that, but for the most part, that money is being spent. It’s being added to the economy. So it churns just alongside everything else. And that keeps asset prices high, along with just the productivity of people, right? As we get new emerging technologies like AI, it’s making people more productive in some ways more than others. I haven’t found an incredible use for AI yet to modernize, uh revolutionize my workflow.

18:47
but some people have, right? We’re seeing a huge decline in junior software developer jobs because AI is able to code all of the little programs that were the result before. So that increases economic output and ultimately makes those companies more valuable. So let’s talk about habits. What would you say is the one habit that we can improve or help improve long-term investing? The most important habit for long-term success.

19:15
other than tempering your psychology of just like not being someone who jumps in and out of the market. And this goes along with that, but it’s consistency. If you can consistently put away a set amount of your income, if you can be consistent in your investment plan and not jump between investment strategies a ton, if you can be consistent in your application of your investing like philosophy and mandates and rules,

19:44
Right? If you have a philosophy that you should invest in passive, cheap index funds, right? And they would use the word inexpensive. Use the word cheap, but you know, low cost index funds. And then you find yourself sitting with an account in the side. Oh, I really want to buy AMD stock or Nvidia, whatever it is. Right. And there’s a, there’s a time and a place. If your philosophy allows for you to have some money to sit around and pick stocks with, and it’s reasonable.

20:13
and you’re responsible with it, that’s not a problem, right? Just like it’s not a problem to take some money to go to the racetrack. If you take all your money and go to the racetrack, that’s a problem. So there’s a level of fun you can have, but for the most part, being consistent is so important, and especially being consistent in your philosophy and your actions with your portfolio are what keep your portfolio chugging along. That makes sense. So we talk about habit. What about behavior?

20:42
behavior, what would be, we’re talking about the one, the one behavioral change that investors can put into place to see better results tomorrow or the future? Better results tomorrow is the key here. What could you do? What could you take away from this tomorrow? And I think it’s that there is a lot of noise in financial media and being able to tune out much of the noise.

21:12
is an important skill and all it takes is reminding yourself whenever you see statistics in the news whenever you see graphs and charts that may look kind of scary or incite this kind of panic about uh the the future of your assets how much they might they might own of course in the short term i don’t know maybe it will be harmful to the markets right they’ll they’ll move around as they do but for the most part if you’re able to remind yourself

21:42
This is noise, right? Give yourself some perspective. Here’s some perspective. There was a headline earlier this week that was the BLS revised down 900,000 jobs. That’s a huge number. That sounds economy shattering. That revision accounted for 0.6 % of the jobs in existence, right? So we were off by less than 1%, and we revised that.

22:13
If the headline was, Bureau of Labor Statistics revises down the jobs number by 0.6%. There’s no panic, it’s just noise. But when they make it the number, now it’s a little scarier. And I’m not trying to say that job revisions downward is a good thing or what have you. But to note that there is some perspective to be had and the financial media doesn’t always offer it to you.

22:37
So it’s important to have that yourself. you can, if you could do that starting tomorrow, the next big negative headline you see, remind yourself of some perspective. Look at the 50 year chart on the S and P or the 30 year chart on the S and P and remind yourself that all those little dips, all those one, 2 % down days that made you check your phone and feel bad about it. Those are all long gone in the longer term perspective and having that perspective, especially when it comes to news is important.

23:05
So our good friends at Oppenheimer, um Julian and Baron, that uh they provide a lot of uh advisory advice and work for our company, they gave me a sheet I had next to my uh office that maximum S &P drawdown since 1990. As you see, every year there’s drawdowns. And you see it always comes back up. And so it’s just, and I like the mantra that you said, uh

23:34
And I’ll use it, which is just remember noise, noise. And as long as, uh, I almost feel as a self-directed investor that when the markets do like these wonky things, it’s kind of like a shakedown. Can you stay in? Right. And how much conviction do you have? And as I find is when there’s a shakedown, I will sell some things I’m not as con I don’t have much conviction about. Right. And then others stay put that I know this is what I believe in.

24:03
And this is don’t touch it. So, uh, I think that’s a, it’s, good to know what you, what you’re investing in. You believe it, but really, like you just said, it’s simple. And if you’re doing, I heard something really impressive from one of the YouTubers you recommended. said, if you’re going to invest in a different weight or something else in the market, the deviating from the world market, you have to ask yourself, you know what you’re doing and, what’s your reasoning behind it?

24:33
So I think that’s something of great caution of humility, but I appreciate the whole idea of noise. So a lot of our listeners are professionals. So, and they’re busy. So tell us about rebalancing and how often, we know we shouldn’t be looking all the time, but how often should we balance our portfolio? Now, rebalancing is getting the weights correctly. Now, if you buy one fun, like total world, you don’t have rebalance much, but.

25:01
If you do have multiple funds, how often should you rebalance them? Yeah, this is a great question. And I think it’s very functional question that doesn’t get talked about a whole lot. The goal of rebalancing is to ensure that your weights in your portfolio, let’s say you have a portfolio that’s two funds, right, stocks and bonds. So you’ve got one fund that owns global stocks, one fund that owns US or global bonds, and they move in price throughout the year. And so every now and then, you need to go back

25:31
and adjust them back to those weights. Now for some people that’s an annual task. I would say that’s probably the most infrequent. Anyone should be doing it. So I would never recommend waiting longer than one year to rebalance. And if you’re invested in really simple, slow moving parts like a diversified stock and bond portfolio, then once a year is probably okay. The

26:00
financial advisor recommendation is like once a quarter, but most people don’t want to every three months have to remember to go do that. That’s why they pay advisors to do that kind of stuff. At the most, I would recommend not rebalancing more than once a month. So I’d say that that would be a little extreme would be to do it more than once a month. And even then once a month is probably too much for most people. So I think the goal for most people should be quarterly. If you can stand quarterly,

26:29
That’s probably gonna lead to the best outcomes in terms of keeping you at target weights most often without consuming too much of your time Annually if you really don’t want to deal with it You’re like, I know I’m miss those deadlines So I know I’m not gonna rebalance quarterly then you might as well just make an annual plan have one day a year You know, whatever your portfolio’s birthday is. Well, you’re a you’re you’re known as like an ETF guru How many ETF you know, you could also buy what are called target?

26:58
date funds, right? Or funds like that already have stock and bond uh divisions, okay? Like AOA, some that you know. And so those, you never have to rebalance. You buy one fund that has stocks and bonds, or you buy one fund that’s target date, meaning as you get older, it shifts in its proportion to be more conservative near retirement. And then you never have to rebalance. How simple.

27:29
Now, was a, there’s a, go ahead. I like the target dates a lot for this too, for the especially busy people who are like, I don’t even, I don’t want to know what the word rebalance means. Like, please just keep it away from me. But I want a portfolio that works, right? Cause we know we have to rebalance it. These target date funds are fantastic. They all have a target date, which is your retirement year. So if you’re going to retire in 2050, then you would pick the 2050 fund.

27:56
And it rebalances itself. Every year, it gets a little bit more conservative. It owns a little bit less stocks, a little bit more bonds, all the way up until your retirement year. And the Vanguard versions of the target dates get to 50-50 at the retirement year. So they’re half stocks and half bonds. I don’t know about the other funds, but uh Fidelity and Schwab both have their own target date mutual funds that follow those rules. That’s phenomenal. And then I think about this.

28:24
The word would be some don’t know, but Jack Bogle, which is one of the founders of Vanguard or the founder, there’s these people called Bogle heads, right? And aren’t those people, it’s kind of like the philosophy we talking about, right? Which is, cause Vanguard was like instrumental in ETFs and simplicity, which is a stock of bonds, right? Is that what it is essentially? Jack Bogle had a philosophy that was investing.

28:51
is complicated needlessly. And he believed that the financial advisor world was uh selling things that were intentionally obfuscated in their complexity. So financial advisors would load you up with 30 to 40 mutual funds. They would have all kinds of weird names and asset allocation strategies and whatever it is. And at the end of the year, your portfolio performed about the same as the 60-40 stocks and bonds.

29:19
So Jack Wigwell says, well, why wouldn’t you own one ticker? You can ditch, you know, the complicated financial advisor and they’re useful if they’re managing your psychology, if they’re actively managing in a way that’s not just replicating the index, right? There’s a lot of advisors in this path. Yeah. And I agree with you. I think that if you’re, this is what we talked about in the beginning about being a smart investor, making bad decisions is that many of our listeners are very smart. They can get.

29:48
Okay, I buy the world. buy depends on, know, or can offset with bonds. Fine. Um, and I can do that. The problem is the trigger finger, the lizard brain. How do I, that’s what we call the psychology of investing. The hard part is not picking the investing, the investment. The hard part is not panicking. And that leads to the last question. If the market drops 20%, what do we do coach?

30:17
Coach Jack? Yeah, so I think the answer really depends on your situation. If you have a really long time frame in front of you, the answer is probably keep putting money into the market and keep your head down and see how much you can buy now while the prices are flat, right? The best gift that the market gave to Gen uh X

30:44
was that from 2000 to 2010, in some of their more prime earning years, the market was flat. Now, of course, it had a huge roller coaster dot com bubble, which exploded twice, right? Once in 2000, once in 2003, then in the great financial crisis after the housing bubble. But at the end of that 10 years, it was flat. But if you were buying that whole time, right?

31:12
You were able to get those prices where the Dow was at 10,000 or around there your average cost would have been the average of that of that era And then the next 15 years after that was pure explosive growth Where the Dow is now at 46,000 right and so Being able to stay consistent through those downturns is what led to a lot of the wealth creation That did happen the people who won

31:42
who won the most and who gained the most were people who were buying when it was down. Now, if you’ve got four years, three years till retirement, the market’s down 20%, you need to know it could still keep falling. And so if you have a much shorter time span, then you should be conservative. And the way to avoid that, like the market being down 20 % jeopardizes my retirement, is that by the time you have 10, five, three, two years left to retirement, you should be…

32:10
decreasing your stock exposure. So if the market falls 20 % that you’re not totally over exposed to it. So the answer is probably buy for most people unless you’re really close to retirement, which is the answer. The answer was you shouldn’t have been so in the market to begin with. Although there is some like this is this is why a lot of investors will keep a portfolio of bonds so that during times when the market’s down.

32:35
they can sell their bond portfolio to shore up cash to live off of instead of having to sell the stocks. That’s one of the advantages of managing it outside of a target date, is you can choose which asset to sell. In the target date funds, you have to sell the whole thing to shore up cash. I think back to my best performance in the market, and it was up till like 2024 when I just didn’t know what it was doing. I just totally ignored it and as a key

33:05
keep going up. But I think where I personally struggled is when I’m taking out and putting in and trying to time or dealing with the fear in psychology. So that’s why I read articles of guys like you and to try to shore that up. for those that are listening, Jack, where can they learn more about you? uh Tell me where can people, and I’ll put the links in the show notes. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. So I write a weekly newsletter.

33:34
that’s about the crossover of politics and economics and markets. You can find it at jackboman.substack.com. It’s called the Macro Obsession. And then of course, if you have a Seeking Alpha membership, I write there almost every day. And by the way, just a little note, which is cool. I’m a member of your Substack and I’m able to get, you have model portfolios and you give updates on the Substack, which is great. It’s really cheap. We shouldn’t say cheap. It’s inexpensive. It’s affordable.

34:03
Yeah, so for those I just lost yeah, and I think it’s it’s great for those who just want to be more educated like I said, I think jack stuff is a great compliment to whether you’re a self-directed investor or whether you’re a A do it your or you have an advisor just to stay informed with your With what you what you do? I know you do put a political stance. Some people may or may not agree with the political stance But you’re still even with the politics. You’re still very which I appreciate very

34:33
respectful and as generic as possible because we try to stay away from that stuff is because it’s very fiery. But at end of the day, it’s about education. Yeah, in investing, it’s impossible to entirely stay away from politics because politics is investment. in fact, it’s the economy and economics. I do try and keep it very much neutral in my tone a lot because I’m trying to inform people and I’m trying to make sure we’re all on the same page.

35:01
for better or for worse. Sometimes politicians make decisions that are objectively not good for the economy. We need to talk about it, right? I see in your writings how you struggle to frame it politely in that respect. So, Jack, thank you so much for being so generous in here, and we hope to have you back in the future to continue to educate us. for those that are listening or watching, remember to follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube. We’re all over. We’re on social media, Instagram, Facebook.

35:31
Get the episodes as they are released and share with your friends. Get them to subscribe and to follow because that helps us get more people to be our friends and we love friends. So thank you again, Jack. And until next time, go out there and be an All-Star.

35:48
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